On-topic Dolls and the Auxiliary Drudgeon Project

[DoA Mod Squad]

As you may know, whether a doll is considered on or off topic is soley at the discretion of the moderators. Over the years, the moderation team has changed as we have added new moderators and others have retired. These changes, along with a huge growth in the hobby itself, have meant that not all dolls have necessarily been reviewed the same way.

We are testing out having a focus group of members who will take part in decisions about whether dolls are on topic. This group brings our voting pool from 8-12 to over 150. Our hope is that this will serve two purposes: 1) to have a larger, more stable voting base and 2) to better represent the community.

Our focus group (lovingly dubbed "The Auxiliary Drudgeons" because they get to participate in some of the forum drudgery the staff has enjoyed for years) will also assist us by testing and giving feedback on new features and forum changes. They will not otherwise be involved in forum administration, maintenance, rule-making, enforcement, etc.

Auxiliary Drudgeons are established members who participate actively on the forum, chosen to represent a cross-section of the community. Members are press-ganged into service rather than volunteered, so please don't request to join the focus group. Please also note that while we have high hopes, this project could be discontinued at any time at the moderators' discretion.

Going forward, we will be more carefully evaluating new dolls for inclusion on the forum.

• The submission process will continue to be used for custom-manufactured and artist-made dolls.
• All new doll lines appearing on the forum will be evaluated regardless of company.
• New additions to existing lines may be evaluated at the moderators' discretion.
• New additions to grandfathered lines may be evaluated at the moderators' discretion.

The types of submissions are routinely discussed for on-topicness by the moderators, and will now routinely be discussed by the Auxiliary Drudgeons as well, according to the established criteria for on-topic dolls.

If dolls are found to be off-topic, we stress that this decision is made based on the on-topic criteria and is not a criticism of the sculptor, company or doll itself. Den of Angels is an Asian Ball-Jointed Doll forum and that remains our tight focus.

If you have questions about these or any other aspect of Den of Angels, please start a thread in Ask the Moderators

[hobbywhelmed]

Sounds like an excellent idea to help tackle the wider diversity of dolls these days. Keeping up with the numeous releases is indeed a larger job than it used to be.

Excellent (and amusing) name too!

[KittyFields]

EXCELLENT idea! Can't wait to see this implemented! Out of curiosity, will any sculpts be re-evaluated for topicness under this new system?

[Jescissa]

Out of curiosity, will any sculpts be re-evaluated for topicness under this new system?

We won't be re-evaluating older sculpts, there would be far too many to go through if we started from the beginning of DoA's history!

We also don't think that making dolls off-topic after they have already been on-topic for some time would be fair to the owners of those dolls, and dolls previously found to be off-topic will stay off-topic unless there is a compelling reason for the moderators to revisit the decision and open a new vote to the Drudgeons.

[Beatrix Helevorn]

Den of Angels is an Asian Ball-Jointed Doll forum and that remains our tight focus.

I guess then any other BJDS should be off topic on DoA. I mean those made outside Asia. How is it?

[adhara]

I guess then any other BJDS should be off topic on DoA. I mean those made outside Asia. How is it?

It does not mean "Made in Asia". Asian companies can make 'Western' style dolls, just like Western companies can make 'Asian' style dolls.

[armeleia]

I guess then any other BJDS should be off topic on DoA. I mean those made outside Asia. How is it?

DoA is a forum for Asian and Asian-style BJD - this isn't a change. If you have a question about what that means, please check out the criteria for on-topic dolls that was linked in the first post.

[Ehryn]

I think this is a fantastic idea, anything that helps the mods with their workload and makes things clearer for us lot is a good plan in my eyes! Keep up the good work

[Beatrix Helevorn]

I did read criteria for on topic dolls but I still don't understand what do you mean with "ABJD style". Everything described in criteria can be applied to actually any doll "style". I would like to know definition for "ABJD style".

[Cloudedmind]

I did read criteria for on topic dolls but I still don't understand what do you mean with "ABJD style". Everything described in criteria can be applied to actually any doll "style". I would like to know definition for "ABJD style".

This thread might help. There was a better one somewhere, that I'm still looking for.

http://www.denofangels.com/forums/sh...ight=aesthetic

[Ipledreamer]

One aspect may be that ABJDs are basically designed to stand on their own (I know it is a bit difficult with some). Non-ABJDs seem not to be capable of that. And they usually have not flat feet? This is something very Asian-style IMO.

And non-ABJDs usually seem to come with faces already painted. Of course you can wipe off the face, but different to ABJDs this seems not the first intention.

IMO, most ABJDs are created not to already portray someone, but you can let your imagination run wild. Of course, there are also the fullsets, but some people perhaps need these to get creative?

And the bodies of ABJDs seem to be...more in harmony. Designed with more care. Even at the joints, they look more...natural. Made with much more...thought how the doll looks without clothes. Yes, perhaps ABJDs are made in a way to look very pleasing, without having the urgent need to throw a piece of clothing over them.

I have looked at some bodies of lines of fashion dolls, and they looked much more angular to me. As if form only follows function. Even the so often mentioned Iplehouse men show this...harmony, fluency, careful design in their bodies. And this makes the difference for me.

Hm, just a few ideas of someone quite new. If its total rubbish, forget it.

[rhiella]

Yes, I find the rules a little vague. Referring to this post: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/sh...ight=aesthetic
everything is pretty clear and logical points 1-7, but personally I feel dubious about having the need for point 8, which refers to "overall aesthetic style". I feel like we want to encourage versatility of style as that is what I find exciting about the hobby, and I do wish that a rule like this would be either reconsidered or at least reworded. As I said, I feel we should encourage a versatility of style, but if we do have to rule dolls out solely on stylistic grounds, then we should at least clearly define what these stylistic guidelines are, as this seems to leave too much up to personal opinion. For me, rules 1-7 should be enough.

However, going back to the main point in conjecture, which is the Drudgeon project, it sounds like a brilliant idea, but those involved will have to outlined very clearly what these on-topic rules are, as rule number 8 is open to SO much interpretation and personal opinion!

[armeleia]

One possible, rather basic definition of the Asian aesthetic is that it is consistent with existing and emerging Asian art styles. This applies primarily to modern styles such as those found in anime, manga, fashion illustration, and popular culture. In general, the aesthetic also describes a certain degree of harmony in the facial features, coupled with an intentional stylization that is consistent between the head and body. There is also a certain degree of ambiguity or "openness" to the face that allow it to be interpreted in multiple ways, which in turn allows it be customized in a variety of ways.

The aesthetic (and the criteria) aren't new and they aren't really up for the debate; they're here to stay. DoA isn't just a catchall for everything with elastic and joints. We just wanted to let you know that our voting pool is bigger, made largely of members like you, and we've got big hopes for a lovely, consistent future.

[Ipledreamer]

This is my wish as well. And I think somehow I understood this term "Asian aesthetics". It is a bit difficult to grave this in stone.

My feeling is that it is an overall strive for perfection, to find the perfect balance between the beauty of a sculpture and the functioning of joints.

And a face that leaves open a certain range of interpretation. Even if there is something like an emotion like an open or laughing mouth, it can be interpreted by means of colors (i.e. face-up, eyes, etc.) in different ways. Just slide through the databases. There you can see clearest the range of expressions these dolls can have.

This is the first aim of these dolls - that the owner can style and customize the doll in the way he or she wants.

And this just does not apply to the Western-styled BJDs. There you decide for this or that doll and put this or maybe another outfit (which I read is also already seldom) on it. Changing colors on face is somewhat far less intended. Customization is not the first aim. The doll is pre-determined.

And the faces look often...awkward to me. But this may be just my taste. I find it difficult to love them really. When I look at pictures of ABJDs, I often find them...sympatico, positive persons. Fashion dolls, if I feel very positively, are to me at best beautiful, good looking. But they keep me always at distance.

[lostkitten]

Is there any way to appeal for a certain artist's dolls. I mean, I have read the off topic description and the decision to call a group of doll banned for aesthetic reasons seems a bit harsh and undefinable. I am referring in particular to my much beloved Kaye Wiggs BJDs. I have several ABJD dolls from DollZone, DikaDoll, Soom, etc. But frankly I am enamoured with my KW dolls more than any others and have spent a small fortune (growing into a sizeable one) on wigs, eyes, and clothes for them...most from here on the mp.

My KW dolls were designed in Australia and constructed in Korea. They have amazing repaintable faces, removeable eyes, jointed limbs, can stand on their own, and are customizable. They also have a loyal and enthusiastic following. What is the definition of aesthetic as determined by the esteemed Mods? I have not found any answer to that question. Would someone please elaborate?

Thanks,LostKitten

[Jescissa]

Hi lostkitten,

There isn't an appeal process for off-topic dolls. Decisions have been revisited in the past, but this was very rare. Going forward with the Drudgeon Focus Group, we will be focusing on making descisions for current and future dolls rather than revisiting decisions that have already been made. The focus group wasn't set up to second-guess moderators' past decisions, but to help us reflect a bigger part of the community when on-topic decisions are made.

Please remember there is a big difference between off-topic dolls and banned dolls. To date Den of Angels has only banned recast dolls from the forum. Off-topic dolls may be shown alongside on-topic dolls in the Gallery, but may not be bought, sold or discussed here.

Kaye Wiggs BJDs are off-topic because they follow a Western aesthetic, the dolls resemble Western fairytale illustrations rather than reflect past, current or emerging trends in Asian art and style. The focus of Den of Angels is on the Asian aesthetic as we are an ABJD forum. The fact that Kaye Wiggs BJDs are off-topic is not a criticism of the artist, her work or those who enjoy her dolls. Den of Angels is a really big forum, so we do have to keep our focus narrow.

[MAITALIA]

hi lostkitten,

i'm not a mod , but i can partially answer your question:
first off the kay wiggs are off-topic not banned from DOA.
a banned doll is either a recast doll or a doll produced by an artist/company with unethical business practices.
it cannot be show, discussed , or sold on DOA

an off topic doll means that she does not fit , in this case, the esthetic criteria of the abjd world as viewed by DOA and the focus of DO..
said doll cannot be sold on DOA , or discussed on its own. however, it can be show alongside on topic dolls; just not by itself since the doll does not fit the focus of the boad.
its important to remember that DOA , for all of its size, is a private board, not a public, or really democratic, venue.
the owners of the board have the right to set the parameters of the focus of their private online board.
they do this, not to slight any one or their doll, but to have a , relatively, clear focus or area of interest: abjds.
its no differnt than a board focusing on gi joe action figures making fashion dolls off topic.

they are similar, many of the same people like and collect both, but this hypothetical board's area of interest is gi joe.
if they let in all dolls that are 12 inch and adult the board would become unmanageable and you couldn't find anything; or with great difficulty.

asian esthetics and what they constitute, to be fair to the mods, have been hotly debated since at least the 12th century , when good and art from asia were finding their way to the west.
in all that time it has been ageed that they do exist, it is in most cases are easily recognizable,but very,very hard to quantify exactly as to what precisely the specific elements of asian esthetics are made up.
this is complicated by the fact that over the last 800-1000 years the east and west have been constantly been influencing one another and elements of asian esthetics, and various western esthetics appear in one another's cultures, blurring the lines quite a bit.
think of it as a certain set of sensibilities, a certain way of viewing things; it is something recognizable, but very fluid,like water.
whether something is or isn't asian in its esthetics is, to some degree , up to the individula to decide.
the mods are idividuals, and they strive to be as impatial as they can be with such a fluid set of standards.
its no easy task and the decisions are not personal or against anyone or any doll.

sorry for the wall of text, hope it helped a bit.

m.a.

[Baakay]

And not all of the Kaye Wiggs dolls are off-topic. Check the wiki.

I have a question regarding the timing of this (which, btw, I think is a *fantastic* idea!). Is it already in place?

The reason I ask is that I'm seeing things get locked for discussion that look like no-brainers (a new male body, for example) while items that seem less likely to be automatically considered on-topic (flower dolls...with no hands or feet) are not locked.

I bring this up not because I hope to see more dolls declared off-topic -- heavens knows I'm a huge fan of stunningly gorgeous original leaps of creativity -- but because I'm old and confused these days and I like having a clue. Or at least knowing where to buy one.

ETA: and realizing that this didn't all necessarily follow on screen as well as it did in my brain: the reason I ask about timing is wondering whether the confusing locking/lack of locking is related to the new voting system being put in place and things shaking themselves out temporarily.

[Jescissa]

Hi Baakay,

Yup, the focus group is active now. There have been several votes already based on upcoming dolls, so that when News threads were started for those dolls we had a decision and were ready to go. Sometimes the first we hear of a new sculpt is because of a News thread, so we will still have to lock those while we discuss.

[Zabb]

The "Auxiliary Drudgeons" seem like a fairer way to discern if a doll fits the on-topic criteria.... I'm new here, and I must say, before joining I didn't realise that there was such a.....meticulous attention paid to classifying what abjds are. I hadn't honestly given it a whole lot of thought before, although in keeping with what tends to be classified as on-topic, I've always recognized a doll to be of the abjd esthetic when compared to a non-abjd. Even if it's something that's hard to put into solid terms there is definitely an ideality to the proportions and features of abjds that dolls with a "western" esthetic don't posses.

Ahem, but I digress! It certainly seems a good deal more fair to widen the pool of decision-makers in this matter, and as stated previously, more reflective of the community.