Ringdoll Teens, tell me about 'em!

[Sanctioned]

Sanctioned: Please, let's not pretend that a couple of tiny details being subtly different ("oh my god, the tie is striped in the wrong direction and the coat has a slightly different pattern, that means it's TOTALLY NOT GRELL") changes the entire situation. That's ridiculous. You can't say that doll isn't intended to be Grell Sutcliffe, as close a copy as they could get, with just a couple of embellishments.

Err- Pardon me, but did you not see the super long list of things DIFFERENT about the doll? Or maybe you are just choosing to ignore them :/ No, I do not believe that this doll was intended to be an exact copy of Grell. If it was, Ringdoll wouldn't have gone to the trouble of making the changes to his outfit, they would have made it an exact copy, and they would have sculpted an entirely new head.

I also find it ridiculous, that you expect that if you're upset over one total copy doll, omg you have to have a) been in doll fandom long enough, b) been vocal enough, c) been into the fandoms other companies have copied enough to recognize the characters, and d) felt the need to speak up against every single other copy doll ever or else you're a Big Bad Hypocrite. For one thing, I have no issue with dolls inspired by characters if they're done on a limited run, like Minimee and, yes, the IOS Sebastian doll (to me, this would say less "we want to make a profit off this popular thing" and more "we love this character and want to make a doll of them, but we can't just make one not for sale, we have to justify the expense of using the facilities, etc." also, it's much less of a copyright issue / leans more towards personal use etc. and "feels" less wrong if there's a very limited run). Secondly, I simply don't have the time or inclination to police every single freaking doll to come out on the market to see if it's omg a copy of something I'm not familiar with in any way. Finally, I wouldn't recognize a character from Angel Sanctuary if you beat me over the head with a Kaori Yuki artbook.

There are quite a few things wrong with this entire PARAGRAPH.
So if you don't KNOW that a doll has been modeled after a character from an anime because you don't recognize it, that makes it OK, but if God Forbid, someone makes a doll similiar to a character that you know and love, it's not? You've got to be kidding. Well then you'd be better off living your life in blissful ignorance wouldn't you?

When did I EVER say anything about having to have been in the doll fandom "long enough"? I've been in it for about a year, and I know about these things. Why? Because I read the forums. I visit the websites. I do my research when something like this comes along before I make biased, malformed opinions about them. For the record, the IOS Sebastian doll is NOT a limited doll, it's unknown how many they are going to make, and you're "OK" with that. Why? Because it "feels less wrong"? Don't make me laugh. Whether a doll is limited or not should not influence whether or not you are angry that a company is making money off of a doll that is modeled after a certain anime character. If you are so outraged by Ringdoll making a doll that looks Similiar to Grell, then yes, in order for your argument to be structurally sound, you SHOULD feel the need to speak up against every single other copy doll that has ever been sold, otherwise you're just being biased. If one bothers you, then all of them should. It may seem ridiculous to you, but it's the truth.

[ShuriTigerH]

There is one big difference between Ringdoll and IOS in this matter: Ringdoll chose to take an existing sculpt and made it more popular by dressing it up as a popular anime character, while IOS sculpted an entirely new doll head inspired by a popular cartoon character. If Judges didn't have that particular faceup down to the teeth I would have been perfectly OK with him.

[roserising]

Sanctioned: I'm not choosing to ignore the "differences," I just don't see them as significant enough to make the whole thing somehow not a copy, cos... it is.

And I didn't say it was "okay" if a doll is a copy if I don't recognize it, what I meant was if I don't recognize the character? I wouldn't know it was a freaking copy, as if that wasn't completely obvious! How on earth am I supposed to recognize a doll is a copy of an Angel Sanctuary character if I'm not, idk, remotely familiar with Angel Sanctuary's art and/or characters? FFS!

You didn't say you had to have been in doll fandom long enough, I said that, because the assumption is one would automatically know about every copy doll ever made when, in fact, this is far from true. I've been in doll fandom for roughly a year as well, and it took me ages to figure out WTH the Minimee thing was all about, and until this thread I'd never even heard of the Angel Sanctuary copies (I still haven't seen them).

Actually, thank you, I didn't know that about the IOS Osiris/Sebastian. I was under the impression he was strictly limited. Like I said, I only saw him once.

And seriously, I think my argument is "structurally sound" without having to personally take it upon myself to post objection to every single copy doll ever. FCS. Maybe you think people have infinite time and energy (or that, as said, I would even recognize every single copy doll ever), but I have the shopping to do.

Anyway, I apologize for being argumentative. It's been a rough few days for me, and few things get under my skin like the "if you object to something, you must vocally object to it every single time you see it ever or else you're a dirty old hypocrite" argument. This particular copy doll bothered me for a number of reasons, which I've already stated (not just that it was modeled after the character, but the way the pictures were taken/staged, the props and outfit, etc.).

[$avage]

roserising I'm really sad that Judges is yet discontinued and was not even give to this doll the pale chance to go on sale.
I'm sadly have to remember that you pointed out your opinion several times negatively about this doll even in the news thread?Should i?
What i think is that is sad that some companies are fingered as unfair,or are accused to makes copied dolls,while,and that is obvious,evberyone,even the cosplayer, do that without been badmouthing.. while others simply not...that is wide unfair,imo.
What i mean is that your point iof view is well known,i think differently as you.

But again Judges is discontinued now,i'm not happy,but the next time i will see in my opinion a similiar dolls to another i will pointed out,just for intellectual honesty.



To me RingDoll give up only because so many complains about Judges,it's like waving white flag in surrender.
IMO even every single cosplayer that make profits using manga characters costume reproduction is violating the copyright.

I'd agree at all wth you,
now all those who's complaing about will be finally satisfied,
aslo that Ringdoll give up up Judges is just to don't ruin company reputations, and stop the complain about this doll,
it's very very sad BTW...

[$abbatha]

Anyway, I apologize for being argumentative. It's been a rough few days for me, and few things get under my skin like the "if you object to something, you must vocally object to it every single time you see it ever or else you're a dirty old hypocrite" argument. This particular copy doll bothered me for a number of reasons, which I've already stated (not just that it was modeled after the character, but the way the pictures were taken/staged, the props and outfit, etc.).

Again,you complain since the start about Judges,you keep doing even now.
I'm not saying that you don't have the right to do,it's a free world and everyone here have the right to express an opinion,negative o positive,dosen't matter.
What i'm still repeting,like a broken record,is that imo you see something really annoying in this doll.
An i'm really sorry to say this,and again sorry if i seems rude,whatever,but if you don't find annoying other dolls similiar to popular manga characters but Judges this means only that this doll in particular is very annoying/bothering you.It's a matter also of intellectual honesty:
or every single similiar or copied dolls bothers/annoying you or this one in particular really is annoying to you.
Just my two.

[candy_coated]

There is one big difference between Ringdoll and IOS in this matter: Ringdoll chose to take an existing sculpt and made it more popular by dressing it up as a popular anime character, while IOS sculpted an entirely new doll head inspired by a popular cartoon character. If Judges didn't have that particular faceup down to the teeth I would have been perfectly OK with him.

So dressing up a pre-existing doll is more wrong than creating a full sculpt with a character in mind? That doesn't make sense to me. I see the art in making the Spencer sculpt (which looks like a sweet boy) and making him look slightly like Grell (who is anything but sweet). Yes sculpting is hard but at the same time so is making a pre-existing doll feel like an established character.

As far as the profit angle: The way I see it is... most cosplay makers/sellers I know (I'm not talking about professionals or whatever, I don't buy from them or really look at/for them) only charge enough to make a profit based on how much work they put into it - in other words, they charge for materials+time, which is an important distinction... yes, it's a profit, but it's not for the sake of profit, it's reimbursing them for the time and effort expended to make the item. What I mean re: the limited run dolls is that yes, they are making a profit, but certainly not as much of one as if the dolls were standard and always available, and I see it more as justifying not only the costs of making/producing one, but the time spent by the creator who could be working on other projects for the company, and so on... you know, I'm American, so there's this mindset that if you're doing something on company time, you would probably have to justify why or how it would be useful to the company for you to be doing it. That might not actually be the case, but it's kind of how I look at it.

Profit is profit, no matter what margin. You're making individual cosplay costume makers sound like they're breaking even, which is different from profit all together. Even still, costume makers wouldn't repeatedly sell if they weren't making some type of profit that allows them to make more. I don't know what "I'm American mindset" has anything to do with it since The Judges design would be justified in that the designer had to think about how to make Spencer look like Grell. Had to figure out how to make clothes similar to Grell and how to produce the stuff to make him look like Grell. :\

It's a lot less the profit thing and more the whole... making the whole doll like that, dressing it like that, with all those props and everything... Ringdoll could easily have made a doll inspired by Grell without making a doll that looked just like him down to the coat and the glasses and the picture setting, you know? IDK, it bugged me a lot. :\
.

So making a complete sculpt modelling the Grell character is more acceptable than a cosplay using a pre-existing sculpt?

I'm leaving the hypocrisy alone as that is probably due to bias. I'm biased to see that all types of cosplay design, so long as the origin is stated, is just that: Cosplay.

[Baakay]

Well obviously the argument is moot at this point, more's the pity. But I'll certainly be keeping my eyes peeled for the next group of commercially available Halloween costumes "inspired by" some trendy show or other and point them out to everyone, so that they can raise a huge stench about them. Or maybe link to the several dozen cosplay sites that advertise on eBay and YJ. OR the several different doll sites that have produced clothing sets that *gasp* look just like Ciel's trademark outfit with a few details changed (and which are still being sold). Or heavens. A butler outfit.

Really. You can betcher boots that not every one of these companies has official sanction from the original anime company.

As with the "sock couture" fracas I must admit to being sorely tempted to find the money for the base doll and give him a flaming red wig and a cute faceup with painted on pointy teeth, just because.

[$abbatha]

Well obviously the argument is moot at this point, more's the pity. But I'll certainly be keeping my eyes peeled for the next group of commercially available Halloween costumes "inspired by" some trendy show or other and point them out to everyone, so that they can raise a huge stench about them. Or maybe link to the several dozen cosplay sites that advertise on eBay and YJ.

Really. You can betcher boots that not every one of these companies has official sanction from the original anime company.

As with the "sock couture" fracas I must admit to being sorely tempted to find the money for the base doll and give him a flaming red wig and a cute faceup with painted on pointy teeth, just because.

Ditto Baakay

[$avage]

Well obviously the argument is moot at this point, more's the pity. But I'll certainly be keeping my eyes peeled for the next group of commercially available Halloween costumes "inspired by" some trendy show or other and point them out to everyone, so that they can raise a huge stench about them. Or maybe link to the several dozen cosplay sites that advertise on eBay and YJ.

Really. You can betcher boots that not every one of these companies has official sanction from the original anime company.

As with the "sock couture" fracas I must admit to being sorely tempted to find the money for the base doll and give him a flaming red wig and a cute faceup with painted on pointy teeth, just because.

I agree with you at all, i cannot say better then you, i doubt that cospalyers give some money in copyright to anime drawers, even if them sewen handmade thier own costume, so are in the same boat as Ringdoll....

[angelynx-prime]

I
I thank Ringdoll for trying to bring one of their most beloved characters to life, and I thank them even more for trying to share him with everyone else. Unfortunately, thanks to a few sour people, and Ringdoll's utmost DESIRE to please all of their supporters, that chance for them to share that love with us, is now gone. I have no doubt in my mind that Ringdoll has a deep love for all of the dolls that they produce from their own imagination- if they didn't have a passion for their work, their dolls would not be as beautiful as they are, but I will not hold it against them for trying to share something that they love with the doll community, and I hope that no one else will either.

Cosign. I guess I was naive to assume when I saw this that it had been licensed, but it's no issue to me that it wasn't; it was obviously done with love and attention to detail, and I would have been a proud and happy owner. I too thank Ringdoll for trying to do something so cool (and find good homes for all those left-over Halloween chainsaws =).

...so bummed now. really wanted one.

[Elysion gear]

Hmm,, what Can I say? other then what I've said before? the Spencer sculpt does make a good Griel, however I am a little sad that they (Ringdoll) has taken the complainers side and discontinued the fullset doll.

I respect their decision, after the trouble with the "Angel Sanctuary" cosplay dolls. They cannot afford to tarnish their reputation. They are not a big company, and I think that it was good for them to show the versatility of their doll sculpts.

I think we should keep the cosplay arguments out of this. This is a Ball-jointed Doll forum. Our dolls may cosplay or even completely become that character, but that is only part of the customization that we chose to create.
Wig, eyes, face up, clothing. We put these together on a doll ourselves to create a character, either that character be an original or from a book/anime/ect is moot. Any head sculpt can be any character, it takes imagination and the will to create it.

I myself, applaud Ringdoll for showing us what can be done with their dolls. I only wish that it didn't have to come to this:

As for the rest of us, I would suggest ignoring them, don't let such comments bother you.
This hobby is about making *yourself* happy....enjoy playing with dolls however you'd like.

[idrisfynn]

Now that the Judges cosplay doll has been removed from sales there is no longer need to continue going over who has the right/wrong point of view on the issue.

Please move on in discussing Ringdolls.

[kleine_kat]

How would this be an issue if you're unfamiliar with the series? Good grief, people sure write a lot about this thing! I really couldn't care less if I liked RD's Judges and he turns out to be a character from a series I thought so worthless I couldn't watch it past the third episode. He looks cool, that's why I'd buy him.

What I would think troubling is that there is no notice anywhere on the site itself that Judges is based on Grell. It's presented as an original doll, and it's not. Still, -- insert chewed out and half-digested legal copyright infringement stuff. It's a bit sad that RD feels they need to discontinue their line, which loads of people will love precisely because it looks like a character from Black Butler, because hordes of enraged fans--or not-fans--can't deal with the homage.

Why can't it be a homage if they ask money for it? So you suggest they hand out this doll for free? That would be a very cool Christmas Sale, you know, buy the doll and get the outfit for free so you can make the blank doll into Grell, but I totally understand why they don't. You can hardly expect a company to hand out free dolls.

The whole 'I make my own cosplay outfits and that's ok but if companies do it, it's bad' is rather hypocritical, IMHO. Yes, RingDoll should have put it in a large banner: Hey look, this is Judges! Does he remind you of someone? We're huge fans! Oh, and this is what he looks like in other clothes.' Then there wouldn't have been such a storm of protest. That's silly of them.

The funny thing is that I am not half as annoyed at a company taking a swing at cosplaying their dolls than I am at the ranting of certain people here on this forum. Don't get me wrong, you may have a point. It's just that you keep making it over and over again, and I get it, and I just can't seem to care about it all that much.



EDIT: Sorry idrisfynn didn't notice your post. I won't continue this rant.

[tenshi_no_korin]

There were new pictures of the Chai doll on the RD facebook's gallery this morning. He's really lovely! But I wish I could see some straight-on photos of his face. So many doll companies take pictures from coy angles and you don't get the full look of the doll.

I really like his outfit design, though. <3 I'm weak for all that hair. (Even though I've had it myself and cut it off, and it's never practical on my dolls, who don't wear fussy things, it looks so striking!)

[Sanctioned]

@tenshi_no_korin: I knoooooow, he's gorgeous <3 Just goes to show that Ringdoll really was only experimenting with the Judges doll.

[catw07]

I can see people either loving or throwing a fit over the Judges doll. Yes, its based after an anime character. But the clothes, chainsaw, etc while stylized similar are not identical. Companies like dollmore and a few others have already had exact clothing replicas for sale for a long while. There's even a company with a head based after Austria from hetalia, and we see character replicas every day with minimees.

So please, leave the drama and accusations up to the companies. This is a large gray area that also covers fanart and cosplay.

With that said, I love his clothes.

This is exactly what I was thinking! I'm actually surprised that there was so much drama over this doll. I thought he was awesome and so did one of my friends who is a BJD/Black Butler fan. I thought for sure he would be really popular.

[Tempest_Strife]

I really feel a cultural dissonance here. It's likely that there was near 0 negative feedback from Asian countries.

And hey wait... The Automail Jerome wasn't licensed either. No outcry over that one. Maybe things were not as big here yet?

[The Duchess]

I'd love it if we could see better photos of Chai's face as well. :/ In the next few months I'll be looking for a new Ringdoll head and I wasn't sure if I wanted to go for Pan in a different skin tone, or a new sculpt. But all of my 'maybe' sculpts aren't shown at angles that tell me whether or not I'll like it more than Pan. And Ringdoll's not a super popular company right now, so asking for more photos is going to be a shot in the dark. D:

[Teseya]

I know what you mean, Duchess...I've been looking and looking for Pan pics...but very little luck.
And finding the rest is hard too...like clothes. I guess I'll have to wait until he gets here....

[cyranstar]

You can find tons of Pan pics on deviantart.com. Pan is one of their most photographed dolls.