The Dollshe side of the Dollshe/Dollmore copy issue *translated statement page 27*

[KRdollymom]

I have Dollmore public statement ready & asked "Rukawagf " to translate if he could while I am getting ready for tomorrow to serve 30 people for thanksgiving, if he is unsure in some area, he will contact me for help.
Dollmore provided so far this much under the pressure of occusation, more supporting meterials will follow as time goes by. If he will willing to translate as I hope he would, it might take a little time because of length of the statement, please be patient.

[Selurnis]

Wow. I can't believe I've only just found out about this being an issue. I like Dollshe dolls a lot, but I really can't see an obvious simliarity with Dollmore's Kyle and Dollshe's Hounds.

[armeleia]

So if someone admits right out that they sculpted over a pre-existing object they can go ahead and sell it without asking premission from the sculpter of the original without there being a problem?

I mean, maybe it is just my personal ignorance on the situation, but I really don't understand the difference...

So if Dollmore said "by the way, we took Dollshe's body, sculpted over and cut into it to make it look different on the outside" then ran it as a, say, limited run of 30, it would be a different situation?

I am honestly confused...

Ashbet hadn't planned to sell the head - she had been making it for herself and sold a few casts to people who had requested them while she was working. The entire process is well-documented in the Artist Doll subforum. It was not done as a commercial venture, nor was the original of the base EVER hidden or lied about.

Mau has no bearing on whether or not Dollmore has recast Dollshe's pieces.

[Rukawagf]

i just got back from work

i JUSt received the letter

erm it's like 4 pages long
rofl


pls give me an hour to translate
becaues I DO want to translate this CORRECTLY

thank you

Oh and by the way, i'm a girl ;P lol *can't be helped since i'm using a guy in my icon hehehe*


EDIT::
TO THE MODS

oh and if this thread DO get locked, please warn me. and a mod please send me a pm so i can send the letter to you so you can post it or something. because last time my translation got lost while it was trying to post because there was a lock on the thread and i was depressed the entire night for losing the translation lol (I can't copy and paste onto microsoft word to fix this because it looses the korean fonts)

[NabeeRain]

It's late enough in the thread that this will probably be ignored, but...
Ya know, I don't understand the "shunning" of any doll, including those found to be copies in a court of law, and here's why. When the court case is settled in favor of the original maker, they are (in the US) awarded the lost money caused by the infringement + usually a very large statuatory damage. (It can be up to $100,000 per item in the US). In other words, the original company has been paid for the user of their intellectual property. Also, the original company could request a buy-back of all the infringing dolls if they wished. Once it's been settled, the infringing dolls have been randsomed. It's been settled between the companies, and I don't see why the individual owners should suffer. I really don't see why they should be banned from discussion, and jumping on people who try to resell them is really really not cool.

THANK YOU!!!!!

[DimSumDolls]

I can't explain Korean copyright but I know that alot are going on about the changing 20% or 30% or whatever number it is that has been chosen to use. I am only talking about US copyright law because it seems to be mis-understood greatly in regards to those here.

The copyright law 'exemption' you're referring to is 'fair use' which is the use of a portion of a body of work that does not exceed a certian percentage of that work, without first attaining permission from the original creator, and without giving 'due credit'.

The other side of this would be that the portion used cannot be the most important part of the work (for example if you wrote a 200,000 word essay and someone quoted the most important 300 word section, they would be in violation of your copyright, if however their quote was not the most important part of the work it would be exempt from the protection offered by copyright law.

The other 2 exceptions to the law that fall under fair use are 'critique' and 'parody'. You can use work to critique it or to make fun of it without giving proper credit to who owns the original work and without attaining their permission.

In regards to a doll, and again only working here from the US copyright presumptions, the basis of using a doll and modifying it externally would still be a violation of copyright because the bulk of the work was created by someone else, the most important part was not original work.

The 'basis of one work on the work of another' is considered by law to be derivative work, which requires the permission of the original creator for the use. (in essence all fan-fiction is a copyright violation only most authors do not choose to persue it legally as fan-fiction is typically not for profit) But in a case such as this there would be a legal ground for prosecution if it were in the US.

just based off the presumptions made within the thread as I read them

In regards to the dollshe and dollmore boys; Kyle's body would be a derivative work of the Hound body and the 'core' work was done by the original creator with modifications being made by dollmore, without first accquiring permission to do so. So while their may have been a great amount of creative energy that went into changing Hound into Kyle, he could never be more than a derivative work.

I personally do not think that dollmore's intent was to critique Hound's body or to parody it, so falling under the exemption there I cannot say would happen.

Now I don't say any of this to say I think one way or the other. In fact I've lurked here for quite a while without saying a word but I wanted to clarify some of the copyright law 'issues' that are being greatly misrepresented within this thread.

[avacado]

Some parts do look very similar, the insides mainly. I know Mr. Dollshe feels that because the joints are interchangeable means they copied, but it might not mean that. Dollmore may have take measurements and apllied their own design to them. And often times artist are inspired by others to create there own thing.

Hopefully everything will work out because I like both companies.

[georgia]

For me, I'm neutral.
I can't hate both company, seriously.
I must admit that I like Kyle's face and body design. But on the other hand, I can understand if Dollshe or Mr. Kim feel horribly sad about his creation being ripped off. (NOTE: IF it is considered to be a rip off in the court in the end).

[zalem]

oh and if this thread DO get locked, please warn me. and a mod please send me a pm so i can send the letter to you so you can post it or something. because last time my translation got lost while it was trying to post because there was a lock on the thread and i was depressed the entire night for losing the translation lol (I can't copy and paste onto microsoft word to fix this because it looses the korean fonts)

I would suggest making a private post in your LJ and pasting your work and saving it there. It should save the Korean writing just fine (I have done similar things with Japanese writing in my LJ). There is also a "locked" symbol on the top of the thread. If you see that, definitely do not try to make a post especially if it's with translation work that you want to save. It would suck to lose all that work. Oh and if it does get locked, we will always reopen it upon hearing that there is new information.

[Rukawagf]

thank you zalem.

i've been working non stop for 2 hours now? and erm... well. i'm only half done.

she's using a lot of diffricult words which i'm taking my time looking it up to translate correctly as possible.

... it'll take me 2 more hours but i'm very very tired XD I will still continue to translate. i WILL NOT post little now and then little later, that's very disrespectful.

it is 12:30am. I might take a nap before i continue but thank you Zalem for what you wrote, because i'm using that method to save my work just in case i lose my 2 hours of work here lol


Please also note, that Mr. Kim Ki-young, aka Mr. Dollshe's letter, did take me 5 hours to translate the top as well ^^;;;; (one reason why i got so tired, i decided not to translate the bottom. got too exhausted)

i will do my best to translate the rest of the bottom area one day.... ^^;;

[april]

Rukawagf, you have been amazing with all your translation help. And in keeping a level head with all the comments. Just think how crazy rumors and misinformation would get without any translations??? I think this helps everyone have a clearer idea of some of the issues.

I'm glad the discussion has been... warm! but not flaming. I think the careful reader can learn quite a bit in this thread about resin casting, about copyright, about international copyright, about modding and joints, about what different concerns arise with various people. It's fascinating, really!

As a professional artist, I'm very concerned with copyright and the differences between referencing and copying, and where the lines get blurred.

To me, the photos are damning, and it doesn't matter what the court decides, since they are limited to the law and its process, which doesn't at all account for individual views on morals and ethics.

I can understand copying, but it's not right and it generally is a sign of a short-cut that just shouldn't be necessary with professional artists, however tempting it is. The sculptors Dollmore hires obvious are very able. If they had just done things from scratch with these dolls, then there would be no problem... And change the hand positions, for goodness sake! How difficult would that be? Anyway, it's possible that those photos are misleading and they didn't use parts from Dollshe as a base... but (heh), right now it doesn't look that way to me.

BUT, I have no emotional investment in either company. It is a business thing, also--and that will be settled by the courts and compensated or not. And the buyers will also have to make their own individual decisions.

I'm happy to see that boycotting and shunning and all that nonsense is being rejected by the majority.

These dolls are to be enjoyed. If some people dislike them for whatever reasons, that's their business. If others love them for whatever reasons--the same goes.

I also do not think an entire company need be blackened by one instance (not proved in the courts, but people are allowed to have their own opinions regardless). Dollmore has been around for years and with no sign of nefarious business practices. Perhaps some people may feel a lack of confidence after this, but that's their right. I've bought from Dollmore in the past (actually have stuff on order from them now), and probably will again.

Anyway, I hope this thread continues to remain open, and that the discussion continues to be informative and reasonable, as it mostly has been.

[atrika]

just my opinion, dollmore could have made different hand gestures, arm n leg muscles? or different joint mecha anyway? and lines in the palm? i've showed this to a couple of non-doll lovers and ask what they think, they think its a copy after reading some of rukawagf's translation about the mold. i dont know, even if dollmore uses their own mold is it possible for the inner spots to be in the same place? maybe dollshe owner could decide whether to go to court or not by making a poll with all doll fans from both company alike, whether it is a copy or not?

[Rukawagf]

okies i'm so sorry guys.

my brain just died. it's like 1:40am and ... my brain feels empty and it hurts lol.

so erm.... i will take my break. and please hold off on your thoughts because what dollmore have said is actually very relevant and she does try to answer every single question.

so.... good night for me guys ^^;;; i'll try to finish this as fast and accurate as i can..


and special thanks to April. By the way, I've always worshipped your dolls

[georgia]

Thanx again Rukawa!
Yes you shuld have a rest and pls take your time in translating that

[atrika]

I have someone on my msn contacts online now who did well in Chem in Korea.
Rukawagf-Sshi, please could you copy paste the arguments still in Korean, just a couple where you don't understand the Chem and I could ask him if he makes sense of it, (and of course it would be up here for other users to read and translate.)

thanks, sorry to interrupt your work and thank you for trying to keep this unbiased! I really want to have faith in Dollmore again (my Momo will be 2 years old soon), but I don't want to have false faith.

hey there^^ i have a momo too, and i think shes around the same age as urs. i think she is original (though i do think some dolls like petsha have lips like her but not sure^^||) this is a joke so dont start a discussion on this :P

please dont let the outcome make you lose faith in a doll you're already have!
I love my sweet momo, and i did plan to get hound sometime ago (but didnt reach that goal because of funds).
im interested in this thread to see the outcome, and it did not have any whatsoever effect on my feelings towards dollmore or dollshe. to me they're just doll company? ^^

[LKJ]

Firstly, Rukawagf, thank you for all the work and translation! Good luck on it! To DimSumDolls, it's wonderful to hear a take on US copyright because I was starting to believe that no one should ever publish or produce anything in US if the copyright laws were so lax.

Next, I know the thread is spanning 18 pages so it's understandable that people are missing things. Anyhow, to repeat what someone else have already said, it doesn't matter if Dollshe has patented whatever they made or not and the US copyright law doesn't really apply in this case however it is. Korea is under the Berne Convention, which, while I'm not an expert about, I think will protect all artistic works of the people.

And to bring up something which happened on the Dollzone thread and continues to happen here; If you're saying 'It should be obvious that this is/isn't a copy' please bear in mind that not everyone sees the same thing as you do. It might be obvious to you, but that doesn't make it obvious to everyone else.

[LKJ]

I ah...realized that I didn't even talk about the Dollshe/Dollmore issue and was blabbing about other stuff instead. Based on my own opinion, the insides of the dolls are remarkably damning to me. For the few who said that as long as changes are made to the original sculpt, then it's alright because it isn't an exact copy, I think that type of belief allows plagiarists to get away with what they do. Think about it in a different way. If I was to release a book that was about Harry Potty who goes off to a magical school and finds himself having to defeat Lady Voldemorty, but I threw in a few new characters, tweaked the plot a little, would that be alright? I might have put effort into making the changes and I might have spent six months typing 500 000 words, but I've taken the base and core of Rowling's story and gone off to try to make a profit of it. And I, of course, deny it. That still sounds like plagiarism to me. Just because the plagiarism involves more work doesn't make it alright.

A lot of people are saying that as a businessman, Dollshe's creator is being unprofessional. However, if what he says is true, that he did in fact try to do all those things he did (settle out of public many times) then I think frustration might have drove him to do what he did. It might also be a tactical business move. After all, while the legal proceedings are going on and might even take years, Kyle will continue to be sold. Him going to public to discredit the other party might not be entirely based on emotion and also, might not be entirely idiotic for a businessman to do.

I've read people casting doubts on the photos...I just have to say that I highly doubt, and actually hope that there's no one so stupid to photoshop evidence into the pictures and put it up in public when they're about to go into a legal battle and will have to provide evidence including those photos and the bodies of the dolls themselves. Because if all those pictures are photoshopped, the case is going to be lost in a blink of an eye and there's going to be a counter suit on slander soon enough.

[atrika]

i wonder, in light of this discussion, did anyone try to swap their own dollshe and said dollmore doll bodyparts out of curiosity? just wondering hehe

[oriscany]

ok I'm done with this.

he said, she said...blah blah blah

No matter the outcome or how many pile up to throw stones on which side, I am happy with my doll, happy with my choice, and happy with the transaction which lead to him living here.

I just can't bring myself to indulge in the speculation any more. Therefore this will be the last post I make in this thread....(not that I have said much)

I have decided I will NOT be taking Trevor apart to search for the tell tale signs of his accused bastard birth....lol.... If he must be an outcast, then so be it. It won't be the first time one of my charactors has had to live with a dark cloud.

I don't care about how he was made. I don't care about who is accusing who. There is nothing that will make me adore him less than I do right now...actually...all this controversy has encouraged me to hug him close and pet his worried brow...made me love him even more.

I hope that when he is seen in my stories he will be welcomed by the readers....though by then you may not recognize him.

and am now going back to playing with my dolls.

Good for you. If he were my boy, I'd do the same thing. And I have to say I think he's wonderful and I'll love seeing him any time.

All of the other stuff is for the two doll companies IN KOREA to figure out....we are to just enjoy.....imho.

[kokoryta]

i wonder, in light of this discussion, did anyone try to swap their own dollshe and said dollmore doll bodyparts out of curiosity? just wondering hehe

Nope, the one person who we know had a Kyle doll refuses to even see if the marks are inside the torso. Which is perfectly within her right, but I find it is a cop out as you don't even have to take apart the doll.

Some parts do look very similar, the insides mainly. I know Mr. Dollshe feels that because the joints are interchangeable means they copied, but it might not mean that. Dollmore may have take measurements and apllied their own design to them. And often times artist are inspired by others to create there own thing.

Being inspired by a work does not mean you take exact measurements and reproduce it. As others have pointed out before, even if Dollmore was looking at a Dollshe the entire time they sculpted, the joints would not be so perfectly interchangeable.