The Dollshe side of the Dollshe/Dollmore copy issue *translated statement page 27*

After reading alot of Gayle's posts and responses by others, I have a little bit to say. I think when Gayle says that Kyle is a Dollmore doll and NOT a copy, she means that she doesn't believe Kyle is a DIRECT COPY of a Dollshie doll. However, I think their is no disputing that the original Dollmore body from which all the bodies in question came from was a heavily modded Dollshe body.

Honestly, for a modder it would be VERY easy to make the overall look of a doll drastically different. Here's an example of my own modding: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78181

If I were to do similar mods all over her body and then make a mold from this body, I could easily produce a body that looked NOTHING LIKE the original CP body. But does that make it okay? I really don't think so.

That's like... tracing an original artwork, but changing the DETAILS so that it LOOKS entirely different. But nothing changes the fact that you traced and claimed it as original.

 

they might break but they wouldn't disentigrate. I've only had two pieces ever actually break when I've made molds from them and it was minor breakage. I always always keep my originals too. :/

 

you are awsome. thank you.

this is dollshe body i'm guessing?


oh and technically, even if Dollmore has the ORIGIONAL SCULPT, since all kyle should be EXACTLY the same as the origional sculpt, i think pics of kyle from owners should be alright.

 

I felt the same way after buying my ForeverDoll in 2001 and later learning that it was a copy. However, the FD was considerably less modified.

My point is that anyone that would hold it against you for having purchased him before these issues came to light isn't someone you should interact with anyhow. Obviously, they're over judgemental and probably aren't someone you want to be friends with.

As for those worried about attempting to resell Kyle if he gets banned from DoA: When I sold my FD on eBay, I posted to DoA about the sale and it was very politely closed (I belive by Armelia, who always provides a polite explanation when closing threads). I wasn't heckled about the DoA thread OR the eBay sale either via DoA or eBay, but I believe the reason is that I very clearly stated the FD vs. Volks story in the sale so that no one was mislead.

If it comes to these Dollmore dolls being found to be illegal copies and therefore banned from DoA, you ought to be able to sell them on eBay with minimal to no heckling as long as you're honest in the listing.

 

well said. thank you.

 

You're welcome! Yes, that's the inside of the mid-torso of my Hound, viewed from the top of the stomach looking down.

 

wow! so much info here, so here's my opinion:

While it sort of looks like Dollmore's artist took the Hound body and put clay on it and changed it, it still took work. The above comment about "doing it so they didnt have to do any work" is inaccurate. We dont know why they did it and regardless, as any modder can tell you; its still work to change an existing sculpt to something else.

And Kyle *is* something else. He does not look like Hound, he does not move like Hound; He is *NOT* Hound. I am not saying it's okay to rip someone else off. However, I think Kyle is significantly different enough that it doesnt bother me. In fact, I have never looked at Hound and said, "Gee, I'd love to spend $600 on him!" but when I saw Kyle, I DID feel that way. The way I look at it, all BJDs are similar in some ways and the improvements that the Model body has are going to become an industry standard in a year or two anyway.

IF they used the Hound body, there may have been an innocent motive like getting the proportions correct so all the pieces would fit together. We'll never know WHY they did it, IF they did it. Besides, you'd think Dollshe fans would be ecstatic knowing there is another body out there thats better that they can swap out their beautiful heads for.

BUT, I agree, the hands are too similar to not be copies. What if they were the only copied part...would there be a similar tantrum from DollyLand?

 

Well......pink_dollfie, when your Kyle arrives, he'll still be your new boy. It's not his fault, if you know what I mean, so just enjoy him anyway and be proud of him. All dolls are unique once they reach their owner. I think. Don't be sad.

(And people should no way frown on you).

 

Sorry ive been really busy and absent for the past month so im kinda late on this topic

Anyway,.. Those photos of the interrior flaws are a dead giveaway that at least those parts are a direct or modified copy of the orginal, Its actually kinda shocking that somone who was trying to make a direct copy from the original doll wouldnt at least go throught the trouble to make new core molds so that interrior flaws would be absent.
More than likely the original parts were slightly modified then remolded, whoever remolded the parts probably had no idea they should be modifying the interior core molding and just used the modified original as it was, and thus you end up with a "fingerprint" of the original dolls origins

I hope the above made some sense (aside from my mispellings ),

I can understand why the folks at Dollshe would be so upset, If i found out someone was coping and selling any part of my work it would not be pretty.

great pain and suffering, blah, blah, hellfire, etc..

 

I don't have a lot of personal stake in this issue, but I did want to insert a cautionary note, because something that came up worries me...

Please note that at this point, I think that there is very little that any of us as individual doll owners can do about the situation. If there is going to be a legal battle, it is up to the courts to determine if Kyle will continue to be sold, if there will be damages paid, etc. All we can do is decide individually whether to continue to support the company or not. That is an individual decision, however, and I am concerned that owners of Dollmore dolls (and Kyle in specific) don't come up against shunning or insults. Some of them ordered Kyle before this whole thing was brought to light; some won't belong to DoA and will have no clue there is any controversy at all. And some of us ordered a doll who isn't the subject of controversy, like say a Model Girl, and certainly plan to continue buying clothes and/or shoes from Dollmore because they're the only ones who make things that fit.

To be frank, this kind of drama, potential or otherwise, is one of the things that made me hesitant to join the fandom. So though thus far cooler heads seem to be prevailing (for which I am grateful), I would just like to encourage everyone to think carefully before typing, and especially to try and refrain from judging someone based on what doll they've bought...

 

I was thinking...
If I was an artist, I would be quite happy about other people doing art works INSPIRED by my own work...
It would be like an academic brainstorm in which everyone respond to an idea, interpret from it and make their own creations, and everyone can benefit from it.
However, I would like the basic respect of a reference by those who used my work.
Whiles everyone say that other people copy and mod...etc. The point isn't about modifying from something but the often ignored fact that there is no reference to the people who slaved away to produce the original that was recasted and modified.
Something happening a lot doesn't mean that its right. People get raped everyday, does that make raping a right thing to do?

 

I have two Dollmore dolls and I'm not worried about this at all.

Dollmore was very established before this happened. There must be alot Dollmore dolls out there, so that's a lot of people and their dolls to be marginalized!

Apologies to Dollzone owners to bring them up as an example, but they don't suffer anything like the bad treatment for owning 1/3 DZ that people speculated they would get. And, everyone admits that Dollzone started with copy dolls. So the reception would be far more likely to be poor.

Whereas Dollmore is 4 years old according to my doll's boxes, so they are not introduced with the stigma attached.

I hope that made sense!

 

All I know is, I ordered my Kyle today and put him on my plastic, instead of waiting until after Christmas like I was going to, because I was afraid he would be removed from the market and then the secondary market value would skyrocket. I'm wondering how many other people did the same...

 

I'm kind of glad. Poor Kyle Reese; what a storm about him.

 

I have a speculation, assuming that Kyle was in fact created off a Hound base (but please note that it IS purest speculation, I have no inside knowledge or anything!)...

I did think it strange that after delays, Kyle was released and then almost immediately an alternate "thicker" body was promised. I mean, granted I'm new to this, but the bodies seem to change far less quickly than the heads... well, look at Dollshe as an example, AFAIK Hound, Husky, Saint, and Van are all the same body mold with different heads. I've seen the same thing happen with Dream of Doll or various other companies. So why make a new body available so quickly?

So my theory (again, temporarily operating under the assumption that the copying is real) is that for some reason, Dollmore was having more trouble than they expected with the "real" Kyle body. But they'd already delayed the release, so wanting to release something before the delays got out of hand, they took a shortcut and used a Hound body as a base. Basically to buy themselves more time.

Now if this somehow happens to be true, the downside would be that yes, they copied, but the upside would be that if they manage to get the "real" Kyle body working, it would be a new creation. They could then recall or at least stop selling the body they based off of Hound...

Done speculating now, moving on. I'd check my Van for inside-of-tummy blemishes, except I just don't think I have a trained enough eye to know what I'm looking for... and I'm too chicken to take my boy apart. And since he's a Van and not Hound, he wouldn't have the inside-of-head mark either...

 

well, i wasn't aware that they were changing his body to be "buffer" and I want a skinny kyle so this will work out in my favor, probably

 

OK, I pulled Sai out of his bag, dropped his pants, and humiliated him by looking up his belly. Poor fella.

The photo isn't great, but I could get it by just popping him out of joint at his tummy and looking upwards, so ideally you can check for this particular trait without unstringing your boy. The spot flaw, which I am calling 'the nib', is visible on the right if you are looking at him from the front.



As you can see, I labelled it for easy reference, or as easy as possible.

The other mark I can't see, and even if I could, I wouldn't be able to get a good photo of it in the light I have currently (it's cloudy).

Edit: It may or may not be there, but I think this one would require far more creativity, better lighting, and possibly restringing to get.

Sai is most embarrased by this:

 

Thank you, Donn.

 

This could get really interesting if there suddenly is a run for Kyle because people are frightened he might be pulled off the market.

That would, in effect, have the reverse affect that I think Dollshe hopes for.

I think ny biggest problem with this whole thing is that before any real evidence has been gathered and presented in a legal fashion, from either side; Dollmore is being slandered based on alot of emotionalism.

If the courts decide that Kyle is indeed a copy, so be it, and I would agree, that if so, that is wrong. However, nothing of the sort has been proven yet, and no formal ruling has been made.

I personally think it's pretty rotten that Dollmore's good will is being trashed this way, based on one sides speculation. That, to me, is every bit as wrong as what Dollmore is being accused of.

Regardless of the outcome, I think the way this has been handled on the part of Dollshe is really bad, especially when Dollmore has tried to work with them in a fair manner to resolve this, out of the public glare. The way it has been handled, IMHO, does nothing but damage both company's images long before anything has been proven or disproven legally.

Just my personal opinion.

 

Actually, the 'package' was the very first thing I noticed that was quite similar between the Dollmore and Dollsche tall boys. I thought, 'hey, could this be a coincidence???' Alex